Listening to King this morning, his underlying point was that the tactic in the first quarter isn’t sustainable as the good sides have good key defenders eg. GWS, PA, Cats, Blues, Lions & even WCE which would mean that we’d be playing that way each week. Would supporters be happy to watch that each week; let alone would it be sustainable?
Even Ross Lyon has recognised the need to score closer to 100 points to be competitive.
It was an “experiment” that failed, but it was still a learning experience for a young group.
(BTW This experiment was no where near as bad as the one on Friday night playing Pedlar on Stewart.)
As to the other commentators, relative comparisons are irrelevant as each club is on their own trajectory & impacted by a range of factors eg. Draft concessions.
The draft has been compromised year after year. Western Bulldogs have been gifted 2 of the best of late and the now the Hawks have to write a blank cheque to hopefully secure their signature. Duursma was in our sights and the compensation to North waved him goodbye. Gold Coast are rubbing there hands after their academy bounty.
The top 5 pick themselves, then it can become who's the best of the very good, but potentially not great draftees.
Hawks have had to rebuild a midfield that was shortsighted in the players traded in at the end of our golden era. Worpel is our most experienced midfielder and he continues to shine within his limitations. I honestly rate him and hope he is part of our next wave of success.
The Hawks will a dangerous team once Sammy works out the correct chess moves, and getting games into our young legs. The Demons (DeMENs) proved experience and confidence is unstoppable when firing on all eight cylinders.
Love your take Danny. No one has mentioned the fact that Nuke and Nash have gone from hunters to hunted. It will take both time to adapt. This adds to the complications of missing Daysie.
Agree we need to keep things in perspective and there certainly are some bright shoots emerging (Weddle, McKenzie, McDonald) that you mentioned. The new external additions to the team have all looked like positives, Ginnivan and D’Ambrosio particularly and Watson will be a very dangerous commodity in time.
However we also need to be realistic that some in this team may not be keepers. I worry about Reeves, his lack of mobility/agility limits his effectiveness and I’m not convinced he has huge upside. Finn is a very limited footballer and shouldn’t be getting a game just to be a stopper. I like Josh Ward but he’s flatlining at the moment.
At this stage we have to give others their chance after two losses.
I’m willing to give Ward more time before casting judgement, but there are still plenty of holes in the list, that’s for sure.
I’m a big fan of Seamus Mitchell and Bailey Macdonald. I really like what I’ve seen from Bodie Ryan. I’m bullish on the long term potential of Calsher Dear, Max Ramsden and Will McCabe. We will need to add more though, an A Grade mid and key forward at the very least.
That run off half back was missing Saturday. Seamus Mitchell and Bailey Macdonald both play with flair and dash (as does the forgotten man CJ). One of these should play this week. I’m not sold on Amon as a half back…reckon he’s more effective on the wing.
Spot on. I think Easter Monday might come to quickly for both Mitchell and Macdonald. But the quicker they can get opportunities the better. We need their run and carry.
Agree with this. Even frost has shown something but I cannot think of any positive contribution from these three esp. ward that justifies optimism. Ward is starting to closely parallel the DGB trajectory with HI team. That’s, he’s a high draft pick so give him (unlimited) time. He needs to show why he deserves time.
Great piece, Danny. Healy and Hodge on SportsDay provided better context than what David King did. There’s definitely problems to address both tactically and individual form but I can’t help but wondering if Will Day’s injury and the horrendous intra club at Waverley let the air out of the tyres of a side who knew everything would have to go right to compete. Going to focus on the individual moments and development of the likes of Weddle, Wiz and McKwnzie to name a few
Hawks in a developmental phase at the moment so as fans we need to learn to derive our joy from places other than the scoreboard. Mackenzie, D’Ambrosio, Ginnivan and others have provided that for me so far this year. I’m just hoping Macdonald goes to another level and Ward finally shows us something.
While I agree with the majority of the comments, especially about perspective, I am at a loss to explain what the aim was during the first quarter on Saturday. It was a 360 degree turn around from the gun and run, back yourselves, style that we got to love during the second half of 2023. Was it a deliberate move to get the young players to realise just where they are and not to get ahead of themselves? To get to where we want to go is going to take a bloody lot of hard work and total buy-in to what needs to be done. What the first quarter did highlight was that under no real pressure from the opposition, the young hawks made basic skill errors and suffered the consequences. I would like to think that the reasons were something like this because it is very easy for young players to think that they are world beaters after taking some big scalps. As Daniel pointed out, just maybe the players needed to get a bit of perspective in order to get back on track. Let's hope so-Go Hawks!!
Thanks Tom, it’s a good point. I think the idea was to try and deny Melbourne the ball and execute our game plan to attack when the opportunity presented itself. Unfortunately the team was either ill equipped or just unable to execute, which made the whole game plan look ordinary.
Danny - I grew up watching the likes of Ken Beck, Norm Bussell, Michael Porter, Les Hawken et al
The Kennedy Commandoes...many of these guys were not all that talented or skilled but they always had a crack. All are premiership players. Bruce Stevenson and Normie Bussell have more premierships than Robbie Flower or Robert Harvey! Yes they had some real young stars in the team - Knights, Matthews, Hudson etc but without collective effort and will to win they could not have succeeded.
We have a talented list and some really good young players but the required effort and will is not being demonstrated.
We played insipidly and we played afraid against Melbourne. We did not tackle or chase. We did not pressure or harass. We came up short. This sort of effort would not have been tolerated under previous regimes. It should not be tolerated now.
There is a fundamental reason why the club has been successful over the past 60+ years - and it is not recruiting luck or other external factors. Every team has its stars but more than that Hawthorn always had an uncompromising attitude - whether up or down Hawthorn was always feared and always respected.
We don't need slogans or marketing. We need a hardening of the collective will to try, to work and ultimately to succeed. To pay the price - to quote another Hawthorn legend.
I think this is a good point Frank. I don't know what our pressure rating has been in these first two weeks, but my guess is that it's been relatively low. Certainly, our tackle numbers were low on Saturday. That has to be a focus this week against Geelong who have great skill forward of the ball - pressuring their midfield and rebounding defenders will be critical. It would be great to see some real manic pressure applied this week.
If you look at the tackle count after the first quarter, it was 44-50 (photos look hard to post see link below). The first quarter strategy did make for a statistical anomaly. The Demons were stronger standing in the tackle which is an indication of having played more games & more pre-seasons.
Personally, I don’t think that across the board the effort was in question. There may have been individual incidents, but not across the entire team.
Mick we rank 15th for tackles and 16th for contested possessions and we have played Essendon who are known to play a bruise free brand.
Nobody expected us to beat Melbourne. Melbourne are top 4. We were soundly beaten but even then the margin flattered.
Three of their younger guys - Sparrow, Van Rooyen and Rivers led the way.
We can isolate slivers of the game and pull out numbers, but the game is played over 4 quarters. Once Melbourne realized what they were dealing with they took their foot off the gas.
Pressure rating against Melbourne was also noted to be low.
The first step to recovery is acceptance. Chol - who is known as a laid back guy - led the tackles on Saturday. How is that possible? Newcombe who laid double digits in his first AFL game - laid 4.
Also heard the majority of our tackles were ineffective i.e. the opposition was able to get away an effective possession. We had double the number of ineffective tackles to Melbourne's. This is a lack of effort, intensity and/or technique.
The ridiculous first quarter was embarrassing. To score zero goals and take the number of marks we did is absurd.
We need to see effort and intensity at the contest and a game style that is not laughable. Just do that.
Forget the result. Winning is not the point. Earn respect. Score in every quarter and not get blown away by 10 or more goals by a team that is using a game against Hawthorn as a training drill.
They need to at least start showing up to give the fans a reason to care.
Thanks Daniel, great piece - you need to get your mate Brad to read it. We should be starting a list of Brad's big statements about how bad we are, how bad individuals will be and how bad we are going to be. The starting point to any success is to have genuine talent and as you point out, we seem to be building that on our list. The fact is though, these guys need 4-6 pre-seasons and 80-100 games under their belt before they are bona fide consistent, high quality AFL players. And that will take time.
Against Essendon, we were highly competitive and had we taken our chances, could have won. The first quarter against Melbourne was a big mistake, both from the coaching group in the instruction and from the players in the execution. When we reverted to playing more normal Hawks footy, we were highly competitive with Melbourne.
If we can tidy up our clearances and bring some real pressure, there's no reason why we can't be highly competitive against Geelong.
I really like reading Hawthorn-related quotes from members of the media from shows that I don't watch. If they're relatively easy to collect, that would be an interesting weekly article.
As I commented on another fan site Saturday was awful but that comes with new players, young players and maybe trying a plan that we are just not able to execute yet. Perhaps it’s because I’ve seen every Premiership that I have the patience to watch us build from the ground up a premiership team.These things don’t happen overnight or in a year or two it takes time. Also it might be just me as a regular on game day that it is an entirely different watch “in the flesh” to watching on TV. I’ll still be in my seat on game day watching those boys become the “Mighty Fighting Hawks “!!
Listening to King this morning, his underlying point was that the tactic in the first quarter isn’t sustainable as the good sides have good key defenders eg. GWS, PA, Cats, Blues, Lions & even WCE which would mean that we’d be playing that way each week. Would supporters be happy to watch that each week; let alone would it be sustainable?
Even Ross Lyon has recognised the need to score closer to 100 points to be competitive.
It was an “experiment” that failed, but it was still a learning experience for a young group.
(BTW This experiment was no where near as bad as the one on Friday night playing Pedlar on Stewart.)
As to the other commentators, relative comparisons are irrelevant as each club is on their own trajectory & impacted by a range of factors eg. Draft concessions.
The draft has been compromised year after year. Western Bulldogs have been gifted 2 of the best of late and the now the Hawks have to write a blank cheque to hopefully secure their signature. Duursma was in our sights and the compensation to North waved him goodbye. Gold Coast are rubbing there hands after their academy bounty.
The top 5 pick themselves, then it can become who's the best of the very good, but potentially not great draftees.
Hawks have had to rebuild a midfield that was shortsighted in the players traded in at the end of our golden era. Worpel is our most experienced midfielder and he continues to shine within his limitations. I honestly rate him and hope he is part of our next wave of success.
The Hawks will a dangerous team once Sammy works out the correct chess moves, and getting games into our young legs. The Demons (DeMENs) proved experience and confidence is unstoppable when firing on all eight cylinders.
Yes, good perspective and all true...but if Geelong smash us the pressure will really be on.
For the record I think we will bounce back hard.
An honourable loss would be overlooked, but if we’re smashed on Easter Monday, we’ll be smashed during the week.
Thanks for this piece, Danny. It’s nice to see the improved stats fir some of the youngsters. Rome wasn’t built in a day!
Love your take Danny. No one has mentioned the fact that Nuke and Nash have gone from hunters to hunted. It will take both time to adapt. This adds to the complications of missing Daysie.
Agree we need to keep things in perspective and there certainly are some bright shoots emerging (Weddle, McKenzie, McDonald) that you mentioned. The new external additions to the team have all looked like positives, Ginnivan and D’Ambrosio particularly and Watson will be a very dangerous commodity in time.
However we also need to be realistic that some in this team may not be keepers. I worry about Reeves, his lack of mobility/agility limits his effectiveness and I’m not convinced he has huge upside. Finn is a very limited footballer and shouldn’t be getting a game just to be a stopper. I like Josh Ward but he’s flatlining at the moment.
At this stage we have to give others their chance after two losses.
I’m willing to give Ward more time before casting judgement, but there are still plenty of holes in the list, that’s for sure.
I’m a big fan of Seamus Mitchell and Bailey Macdonald. I really like what I’ve seen from Bodie Ryan. I’m bullish on the long term potential of Calsher Dear, Max Ramsden and Will McCabe. We will need to add more though, an A Grade mid and key forward at the very least.
That run off half back was missing Saturday. Seamus Mitchell and Bailey Macdonald both play with flair and dash (as does the forgotten man CJ). One of these should play this week. I’m not sold on Amon as a half back…reckon he’s more effective on the wing.
Spot on. I think Easter Monday might come to quickly for both Mitchell and Macdonald. But the quicker they can get opportunities the better. We need their run and carry.
Agree with this. Even frost has shown something but I cannot think of any positive contribution from these three esp. ward that justifies optimism. Ward is starting to closely parallel the DGB trajectory with HI team. That’s, he’s a high draft pick so give him (unlimited) time. He needs to show why he deserves time.
Great piece, Danny. Healy and Hodge on SportsDay provided better context than what David King did. There’s definitely problems to address both tactically and individual form but I can’t help but wondering if Will Day’s injury and the horrendous intra club at Waverley let the air out of the tyres of a side who knew everything would have to go right to compete. Going to focus on the individual moments and development of the likes of Weddle, Wiz and McKwnzie to name a few
Hawks in a developmental phase at the moment so as fans we need to learn to derive our joy from places other than the scoreboard. Mackenzie, D’Ambrosio, Ginnivan and others have provided that for me so far this year. I’m just hoping Macdonald goes to another level and Ward finally shows us something.
While I agree with the majority of the comments, especially about perspective, I am at a loss to explain what the aim was during the first quarter on Saturday. It was a 360 degree turn around from the gun and run, back yourselves, style that we got to love during the second half of 2023. Was it a deliberate move to get the young players to realise just where they are and not to get ahead of themselves? To get to where we want to go is going to take a bloody lot of hard work and total buy-in to what needs to be done. What the first quarter did highlight was that under no real pressure from the opposition, the young hawks made basic skill errors and suffered the consequences. I would like to think that the reasons were something like this because it is very easy for young players to think that they are world beaters after taking some big scalps. As Daniel pointed out, just maybe the players needed to get a bit of perspective in order to get back on track. Let's hope so-Go Hawks!!
Thanks Tom, it’s a good point. I think the idea was to try and deny Melbourne the ball and execute our game plan to attack when the opportunity presented itself. Unfortunately the team was either ill equipped or just unable to execute, which made the whole game plan look ordinary.
Danny - I grew up watching the likes of Ken Beck, Norm Bussell, Michael Porter, Les Hawken et al
The Kennedy Commandoes...many of these guys were not all that talented or skilled but they always had a crack. All are premiership players. Bruce Stevenson and Normie Bussell have more premierships than Robbie Flower or Robert Harvey! Yes they had some real young stars in the team - Knights, Matthews, Hudson etc but without collective effort and will to win they could not have succeeded.
We have a talented list and some really good young players but the required effort and will is not being demonstrated.
We played insipidly and we played afraid against Melbourne. We did not tackle or chase. We did not pressure or harass. We came up short. This sort of effort would not have been tolerated under previous regimes. It should not be tolerated now.
There is a fundamental reason why the club has been successful over the past 60+ years - and it is not recruiting luck or other external factors. Every team has its stars but more than that Hawthorn always had an uncompromising attitude - whether up or down Hawthorn was always feared and always respected.
We don't need slogans or marketing. We need a hardening of the collective will to try, to work and ultimately to succeed. To pay the price - to quote another Hawthorn legend.
The current group is well short of the mark.
Thanks Frank, they might be well short of the mark right now, but I can see the bones of a competitive side.
Maybe Danny but will to win, grit and bloody minded competitiveness does not come easily and is tough to sustain
Lots of really good players and talented teams have fallen short over the years.
The issue is between the ears.
I think this is a good point Frank. I don't know what our pressure rating has been in these first two weeks, but my guess is that it's been relatively low. Certainly, our tackle numbers were low on Saturday. That has to be a focus this week against Geelong who have great skill forward of the ball - pressuring their midfield and rebounding defenders will be critical. It would be great to see some real manic pressure applied this week.
If you look at the tackle count after the first quarter, it was 44-50 (photos look hard to post see link below). The first quarter strategy did make for a statistical anomaly. The Demons were stronger standing in the tackle which is an indication of having played more games & more pre-seasons.
Personally, I don’t think that across the board the effort was in question. There may have been individual incidents, but not across the entire team.
https://x.com/cowan179/status/1772056113099501577?s=46&t=PstLcpvFsDJm7nkEmVHfEg
Mick we rank 15th for tackles and 16th for contested possessions and we have played Essendon who are known to play a bruise free brand.
Nobody expected us to beat Melbourne. Melbourne are top 4. We were soundly beaten but even then the margin flattered.
Three of their younger guys - Sparrow, Van Rooyen and Rivers led the way.
We can isolate slivers of the game and pull out numbers, but the game is played over 4 quarters. Once Melbourne realized what they were dealing with they took their foot off the gas.
Pressure rating against Melbourne was also noted to be low.
The first step to recovery is acceptance. Chol - who is known as a laid back guy - led the tackles on Saturday. How is that possible? Newcombe who laid double digits in his first AFL game - laid 4.
Also heard the majority of our tackles were ineffective i.e. the opposition was able to get away an effective possession. We had double the number of ineffective tackles to Melbourne's. This is a lack of effort, intensity and/or technique.
The ridiculous first quarter was embarrassing. To score zero goals and take the number of marks we did is absurd.
We need to see effort and intensity at the contest and a game style that is not laughable. Just do that.
Forget the result. Winning is not the point. Earn respect. Score in every quarter and not get blown away by 10 or more goals by a team that is using a game against Hawthorn as a training drill.
They need to at least start showing up to give the fans a reason to care.
Thanks Daniel, great piece - you need to get your mate Brad to read it. We should be starting a list of Brad's big statements about how bad we are, how bad individuals will be and how bad we are going to be. The starting point to any success is to have genuine talent and as you point out, we seem to be building that on our list. The fact is though, these guys need 4-6 pre-seasons and 80-100 games under their belt before they are bona fide consistent, high quality AFL players. And that will take time.
Against Essendon, we were highly competitive and had we taken our chances, could have won. The first quarter against Melbourne was a big mistake, both from the coaching group in the instruction and from the players in the execution. When we reverted to playing more normal Hawks footy, we were highly competitive with Melbourne.
If we can tidy up our clearances and bring some real pressure, there's no reason why we can't be highly competitive against Geelong.
Clearances, hardness and leadership changing will help our overall performance change for the positive
An enjoyable read Danny, thanks!! :)
I really like reading Hawthorn-related quotes from members of the media from shows that I don't watch. If they're relatively easy to collect, that would be an interesting weekly article.
For those who want to hear David King’s comments on the game plan; go to 25:30 https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-monday-means-test-with-david-king-round-2-25-03-24/id1198117448?i=1000650300443
As I commented on another fan site Saturday was awful but that comes with new players, young players and maybe trying a plan that we are just not able to execute yet. Perhaps it’s because I’ve seen every Premiership that I have the patience to watch us build from the ground up a premiership team.These things don’t happen overnight or in a year or two it takes time. Also it might be just me as a regular on game day that it is an entirely different watch “in the flesh” to watching on TV. I’ll still be in my seat on game day watching those boys become the “Mighty Fighting Hawks “!!
Pls - grammar - fewer not less